My diddle about the insuing troble in Iran!
While breaking my diet promise for my month treat of McDonalds, I read some compelling articles concerning relations with Iran and the possibility of the development of weapons. Is this another fear tactic? I think not. Iran has been a shady character on the world scene long before they uttered threats of destruction on Israel. I have really been wrestling with this concept of war. Should Christians join, or support, or accept war as a possibility in situations such as these. These are my ramblings on such a controversial issue.
Was can be view as ordained by God throughout the Old Testament of the Bible durring political unrest, teritories and parties that went agains the call and will of God, and rulers that were not walking under the direction of God. Furthermore, people throughout the Bible were sent out to kill and demolish cities. It is my belief that in some instances wars may be justified. I will not comment on specific wars or instances that I feel are justified because I feel my opinion holds little wieght in light of things. I do believe that in this specific Iran situation options need to be exercised before I can support a war. How about cutting off all trade with Iran? Countries opposed to the position of the Iranian government might or should try this before wars an option. If Iran still refuses to budge, it is my belief that one must fight for the saftey of many. Is this a contradiction to a Christians beliefs? I think not. I believe that Christian's ought to be peace lovers but not a religion that lets other nations take advantage of us so blantenly and openly. Taking advantage by manipulating the world, holding us hostage, and holding the upper hand. Evil will not prevail and Good must take a stand against evil.
We cant let things sort themselves out in the name of peace. There is a time for everything and everything does have a season. I am litterally sick of Christians having the mentality of peace no matter what. Its true I believe that peace is our goal, yet we must not live under a wave of evil. We must not get consumed by a warped post modernist view of a "Hippy like Christianity"?
Is my thinking wrong? Did not Holy wars occur? I am not supporting or deeming any wars as holy or deemed rightious in God's eyes thats not my call. I am just posing the idea that there is more than just accepting every blow by the enemy. At some time we as Christians are called to action.
AM I NUTS?
Simon Out!
posted by Simon Weresch at 9:09 PM
6 Comments:
This is indeed true Dave, however as a sign of the times, the world is soon going to make solid choices rooted in consequences on either side. Do they cut of trade, citizens suck up a gas shortage (price hikes) or do we risk a significantly tattered world. It appears there is a cath 22 so to speak. OPEC will soon be deemed irrelevant if nucular war heads start going off. I have done significant research and I feel that many don't know the scale this is on. Iran has us by the world by it's "balls" and its now time for the world to react and not let this foolish fondeling go on much longer. We must regain control. Lord forbid, however, war is seemingly the only sufficient choice. World leaders must unite to ambolish this evil resheame.
My attention and interest is being invested into this situation.
I appologize but thats what 6 hours over Easter sitting in a hot tub reading newspapers and surfing the net get you. Informed opinons... Simon Out!
As a convinced pacifist, I can only disagree with my brother's perspective. Really, I feel like we're reliving the lives of the Niebuhr brothers, or something. It's intriguing. Nonetheless, I would not counsel war in this situation, because violence merely begets violence. Deliberations, possible sanctions, and discussion must occur before armed forces are sent to protect U. S. economic interests, in my opinion. As Christians, I believe we're called to be peacemakers and, in the words of Jewish philosopher Hannah Arendt, that "power and iolence are opposites: where one has been used, the other is absent (On Violence, 56)." On the other hand, Thomas Hobbes stated, "Covenants, without the sword, are just words (quoted in On Violence by Hannah Arendt [San Diego: Harcourt, Brace, and Company, 1970], 5)." Violence, then, negates power and a government that has to use violence to enforce its edicts (for example, the current native protest in Caledonia comes to mind) has lost all power. It is my belief--you may deem it "hippie-like," if you want; I respect that--that powerlessness--that is, modelling one's actions on the powerlessness of Jesus, especially in Mark's gospel, and the Matthean Beatitudes--is the proper place for Christians to be. If there's any place for Christians to be, then, it's with those who are suffering in Iran, Edmonton, or Hamilton. After all my rambling, then, what's left? The fact of the matter is this: discipleship, being a disciple of Jesus Christ, does not mean that we insist on our own way; love, according to 1 Corinthians 13, does not do that. Love is self-giving and in that act of self-giving actually asserts its worth. Think of people in relationships: if I insisted on my own way alone, the relationship would surely flounder; however, if I, in love, allow the other's needs to supersede my own, then the relationship can flourish; of course, this humility must be mutual. What I'd like to see, most of all, is forgiveness, repentance, and--gasp!--perhaps some apologies.
It appears my brother, Joshua's opinion at home differs greatly from mine...
Josh, you are proposing we let Iran boss whoever they want arround, using thier powers to go all willy nilly? I disagree, when a contry ruled under and with so much evil and hatered for others is in controll, the world must act.
**The world ought not to stand by and watch the manipulation of other countries take place for the sake of peace. I am passionate about this one brother**
And if you or any others are gonna say my opinon is not following Gods then may I direct you to the Old Testament when God instructed the people to be at war with a city and KILL EVERYTHING men, women, and children (Innocent CHILDREN) I am not proposing any killing children or anything, however, if there is war, yes innocent people will die. Is that fair or right? NO Is it fair or right for Iran to take hostage the countries because of the claims of a nuculair war head after being told to drop the projects? NO.
Innocent victems will die if the use of nucuelar powered war heads are launched.
It is the equivilant of giving a shotgun to ex-cons on there way out of jail as a thank you gift. Theres a greater likelyhood they will use it. Lets not be stupid. If the Iranians have nucular testing, it wont be soon until something goes down. When a country blatently declares death to Israel, you know it will be innocence within it's walls attacked.
There is a breaking point for grace. Or is there?
I'm rather perplexed here.
How can Iran be so unilaterally "ruled under and with so much evil and hatred for others," yet the United States somehow be free from sin's taint? Are the actions, historical and otherwise, of the United States of America somehow free from sin? It seems to me that by "the world" you mean America and--sorry to burst your bubble--there's more to the world than the U.S. of A., globalizing tendencies aside.
I understand that you're passionate about this one, but there's passion for the right and there's passion for the wrong; please realize that both sides of the conflict--as if there are only two--are equally guilty. America has committed just as many sins as Iran has.
What bothers me most about this issue is the complete arrogance with which America has decreed itself the judge of who is to possess nuclear capabilities. Since when does a country--a country which refuses to surrender or "step-down" its own nuclear development program, remember--have the right to tell another country what to do with its nuclear warheads? If anything should be done, it should be mutual reconciliation; America should begin to respect the rights and ideas of other countries, cease its interference in world affairs purely to serve its own interests, and begin to see its own sins and problems. Iran, accordingly, seeing that America is ceasing its invasive and deathly foreign policy practices may begin to recover a modicum of respect for it. It's the braggadocio with which America conducts itself on the international stage which I find repugnant.
As for Yahweh war in the Old Testament, might I direct you (and subsequent readers) to Show Them No Mercy: 4 Views On God And Canaanite Genocide by C. S. Cowles, Eugene H. Merrill, Daniel L. Gard, and Tremper Longman III? It's part of the Counterpoints series edited by Stanley N. Gundry. Within you'll find essays that address cases for radical and moderate discontinuity between Old Testament war and Christianity, as well as both eschatological and spiritual continuity with Old Testament war. It will nuance your discussion of Old Testament war considerably.
Off the top of my head (the place I usually think from), I can say that there's a vast difference between God telling His people to fight for Him, to honour His holy name, and Dubya telling Americans to fight for issues about which they are deliberately misinformed by "supposed" government intelligence. To equate the two is scripturally unsound and hermeneutically untenable.
You're right about one thing, though: "innocent victims will die if the use of nuclear warheads is launched," and nuclear warheads, nor the people vaporized by their use, don't care whose last name pushed the button. Be it America or Iran, nuclear war is nuclear war: there are no winners.
Is there a breaking point for grace? I certainly hope not, because you and I and everyone around us have passed that point time and time again. The point of grace is that it is undeserved; the point of forgiveness and reconciliation--neither violence nor retribution--is that it is dependent on that undeserved grace. In the words of St. James, "mercy triumphs over judgement."
My dearest Josh,
I do believe that the US is far from perfect and sainthood, however, I also do trust the United States alot sooner then Iran, a country who publicly declares their hatred for Israel, who has stated on numerous times they want to destroy Israel, and now hold the key to destruction in the form of Nucular Energy. If you want to sit back and watch as pacifit countries watch the destruction of Israel ( a country we as Christians are comissioned to pray for), if you want to watch this go up in smoke, then I agree, we should do nothing.
I didn't know you were such a Zionist. By praying for Israel, I guess you mean the Israel that was created by U. S. intervention after the Second World War? I think that praying for Israel doesn't mean we wholeheartedly endorse their slaughter of Palestinians, do you? It doesn't mean we blindly endorse whatever the government of Israel deems best, does it? I'm not so sure it does. I don't think the Israel as a country corresponds to the Israel that God had in mind; Israel, as God had it in mind, was a country that followed God, caring for orphans, widows, and fatherless in its midst, honouring God in its dealings with other nations. I don't think any country, much less Israel, can claim anything close to that these days--least of all, America.
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